Polarization, Fanboys and the Non-Middle Ground
One of the advantages that blogging holds over other forms of media is the often unfiltered voice it allows. From bloggers themselves, to those that comment afterward, the best blog posts – much like the best interviews – allow for some stimulating and thought-provoking discourse around a topic.
It’s always been one of the key reasons that blogs have enjoyed the kind of popularity that they do, since authors – at least the good ones – will allow all sides of an “argument” to be heard, while maintaining a level of respect between the debaters.
Or at least, it used to be.
Sadly, many discussions now seem to dissolve into he said, she said kindergarten posturing, as opposed to reasoned discussion. Add to that the “the person you’re talking about is above reproach” (as shown by the image below), and it makes you wonder what happened to agreeing to disagree.
(FYI, Mark – in answer to your question, I took 6 days to reply as I was doing what I get paid to do for my clients, and spending time with my wife and son. I put that first over everything).
There’s nothing wrong with disagreeing. There’s nothing wrong with defending your friends. I’d say both are qualities that should/need to be encouraged more, to ensure healthy debate is allowed and everyone’s voice is heard.
When you start saying someone should apologize for stating their viewpoint, though, or that someone is above reproach, there’s something messed up (as long as the original viewpoint isn’t inciting hate or similar). It takes away the very thing most Internet users celebrate – freedom of opinion and the ability to see all points of view respectfully, whether you agree with them or not.
Instead of questions being asked or viewpoints being shared, you’d be left with people afraid to speak because, clearly, only the opinions of the few and those above reproach are valuable.
Sorry, but I don’t buy that.
Do that, and you might as well start letting the infographics win (hat tip to Marc Girolimetti for that quip). And just ask Jon Aston what he thinks of infographics to see whether that’s a good thing or not.
Mind you, a lot of this could probably be avoided if bloggers did a better job of looking after all of their blog’s community, and not just the adoring ones…
Note: For the context of the conversation the image represents, click here.
I've been dealing with some personal and professional issues that have kept me off the blog grid for a few weeks. I'm just getting caught up with this whole issue. I literally feel sick about the state of the social web. What kind of a pathetic, sycophantic mind muck have we created? I've been sitting with my head in my hands for half an hour. Makes me want to quit blogging. What are we doing all this for? Who are these people? I really feel disheartened by this series of exchanges. I am distressed for all of us who try so hard to write fairly, work selflessly, and care deeply.
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Hey Mark, While this sort of thing is frankly depressing just take a look at all the positive, sensible, thoughtful discussions going on. They outnumber the poor quality discussions by a pretty good factor, at least on blogs who's authors take the time to write intelligent posts. Don't let the b*st*rds grind you down... markwschaefer
markwschaefer I guess the beauty of the web - opening up to let anyone share their views - also means you'll get the folks that want these views to be unheard, especially if they disagree with their idols...
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DannyBrown I wrote this comment at like 1 a.m. Now that I have had time to think about it, it feels even worse! We are at the heart of a business built on tricking Google, battling endless spammers and trying to be heard where experience and talent are far less important than number of followers and numerical rankings. What a strange, sad business this is.
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Looks a lot like bullying to me. The sad thing is someone new to social media is going to be put right off by this sort of childish exchange, it just reinforces the stereotype still held by many of social media being a load of childish rubbish worthy of a not very nice kids playground. Hat tip to you Danny for championing grown up debate.
simoncmason That's a good point, Simon - when we deal with new clients, their first fear is coming under attack, the second is how to respond.
Most times you don't want / need to respond, but then the crass becomes the norm and no-one wins. Cheers, mate.
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Dude, did I wait enough days to respond? I would defend you like that; do I need to go hunt that bugger down?
All I can say is 'hey pal, get a life'. Although, it might be interesting if you got that kind of passion out of me., huh?
It's all perspective and in the big scheme of things, I can tell you it doesn't mean much. Personally, fame, celebrity or personality doesn't impress me per se. If I see you blowin' up however, I'm happy for you. If we happen to know each other then that's kind of cool too; but is it going to get me laid? If not, then you are just another dude.......................:). Sorry dear (in case my wife is reading this, you know I'm just kidding, right?) just trying to be witty.
See, I need some stuff like this because I could write a real post then; maybe I could be like Howard Stern or something.
Interesting Dan the man; all I can say is you are about as real as they get, and that's good enough for me.
bdorman264 "Is it going to get me laid - sorry dear..." - classic, mate, classic! :)
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I read your post and pondered it while eating lunch before deciding to respond.
A few years ago, I instructed a publisher under my supervision to fire his advertising director, once realizing the publisher wasn't going to make that decision on his own.
"I can't do it" he told me. "He's the best sales person in town."
"How do you know?" I asked him. I remember him fumbling. The answer was simple - the ad director had told the publisher he was the best, the publisher bought into it, and couldn't consider any alternative - including the fact that maybe...just maybe the ad director WASN'T the best salesman in town.
In social media, a lot of time is spent building one's own personal brand. You have to pump yourself up, as this ad director had done. The result is that among the people who may look at you, there may be a small group of people who are mindless in their devotion to what you have to say. They can't conceive that you might be wrong, much less conceive that someone else might think you are wrong.
Danny, you've written before about social media "superstars" or A-listers. Some folks deserve the designation and others have done a great job of convincing the world they deserve the designation. Question the first group, and things usually seem OK. Question the second group and the gloves come off ... maybe deep down they and their supporters know something's not right. After all, nobody likes to realize they've been duped.
The publisher never accepted my "analysis" of his sales situation. Over the next few weeks, his side of our discussions were constantly "he's the best sales person in town". His devotion to the ad director was so strong he had blinders on.
When I showed back up at that paper a month or so later, it was to fire both the publisher and the ad rep. Oddly enough, the 12 months following the ad director's departure saw a 14% increase in ad sales over the 12 months before his departure.
But as the former publisher said, he was the best sales person in the community.
ClayMorgan Damn, man, I should have asked you to write this post - perfect example, and one we can all do well to keep in mind when we think of our own "idols".
Cheers, sir!
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WOW!!!!! People need to get a grip!! It's part of what's wrong with the world today! Can't we just agree to disagree, respect each other and each other's opinions?
I have read so many stories like this lately, and we have experienced our own attack by douchebag! When I read or experience this stuff, I always wonder, just how would this tough guy react if it were a face to face conversation versus an online one? More than like totally different!
Kudos, Danny for being the bigger person here!
sydcon_mktg I think John Falchetto makes a great point in his comment, about places where free speech and thought isn't allowed. Makes me look at instances where that's "abused", for want of a better word, and how we take for granted the ability to say things.
And yes, the online versus offline comparison is always a good one. :)
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Wow, I just read the original exchange, Danny and it's shocking how quickly it went south and turned into a personal diatribe. Makes me turn away completely and not want to read anything by that person, ever. I appreciate the way you handled the disagreement and difference of opinions.
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EricaAllison I was trying to find the bit where I turned it into a personal attack on him, and couldn't. Then again, I often miss the nose at the front of my face, and that's HUGE, so it wouldn't be the first time I've missed the obvious. ;-)
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It seems Mr. Brogan has been in the spotlight a fair few times these past few days! I've also noticed that he seems to have lost about 8000 subscribers (according to his FeedBurner count). From this, I have two questions:
1) What is happening for him to lose that many subscribers? Is it something he's doing, the things that others are saying about him on his site? On other sites?
2) Why didn't those 8000 subscribers subscribe to Unlock The Door instead?
Now onto this post. Aside from the usual fall-out between comments, which happens too much in my opinion, it seems that there are still lessons to be learned about communicating with others, speaking respectfully, and thinking before you speak. These lessons won't learned any time soon, but steps in the right direction always help :-)
Stuart Mills I think the thing with the subscribers is more to do with how inconsistent Feedburner is, as opposed to a mass exodus, mate. I range from between 5,000 and 6,000 on here, depending on how generous Feedburner feels on that given day. It's a pain, but it'd also be a pain to change to a different option at the minute. We'll see.
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DannyBrown Fair enough. I was just surprised to see the number drop so much. Then again, 66,000 is nothing to sniff at!
How dare you spend time with your family Danny?!
It's a shame people have to get personal instead of just holding a discussion. And there's nothing wrong with displaying accolades like the AdAge badge. It shows expertise and, yes, helps gain readers trust. You work hard for that badge and have every right to display it. Anyone who is on the list would do the same...even...gghhmm...the untouchable Chris Brogan.
Sounds like this guy is jealous that he doesn't have one.
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EugeneFarber I don't know what I was thinking, Eugene - momentary lapse of social networking concentration. Won't happen again. ;-)
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Danny,
The brief exchange about getting a name wrong highlights your theme today. Getting a name right is a matter of respect for others. Failing to apologize for getting a name wrong, failing to say thank when corrected speaks to a person's character. The inability to recognize another's opinion as valid, even though you may disagree is endemic today (see Washington D.C., listen to talk radio) Unfortunately we fail to call out these close minded blowhards for what they are: bullies. I'm interested in how these bigmouths react at home. What I find interesting is the absolute calm exhibited by those that know the facts support their view.
barryrsilver You know, I've never really followed politics, Barry - the very idea of someone wanting you to vote for them to have power over you seems a bit weird to me. But the stand-off in America at the minute seems crazy, with so much at stake.
And yes, it may be a small typo, but funny how it can then lead to something else altogether.
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You're rock solid Danny, gosh I love that about you! That's all I can add here, as everyone else has made their points and good ones. You just make sense ... thank you!
WGB2U Sshh, Elena, you'll make ginidietrich question your judgement.
PS - thank you. :)
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WGB2U No, as soulati would say, 'he rocks hot'.....................he is rock solid.
I think the thing that's most interesting about the short back and forth is the out-sized response. As I read your two posts in that thread, they seemed COMPLETELY reasonable and very well stated. Hmmph.
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Sean McGinnis Don't you start with the Hmph, mate, I get enough of that from ginidietrich ...
I thought they were reasoned - but I guess that's why we have differing opinions.
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DannyBrown Sean McGinnis ginidietrich much easier being reasonable with Gumby looking over ones shoulder threatening bodily harm if one steps out of line.
Consider this a PSA. Any time you say "this will not end well for you" you must accompany it with the Jedi hand gesture, a la "these are not the droids" you are looking for.
Alternatively you might consider carrying around some type of MP3 player that will play the sound of lightning crashing or other "dangerous" music. Really, you just can make those statements without the appropriate accessories.
It is like referring to yourself in the third person or placing "the" in front of your name. Really, who does that.
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TheJackB Now would that be by Ewan McGregor or Alec Guinness? This is an important distinction... ;-)
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DannyBrown TheJackB Alex Guinness, without a doubt!
DannyBrown TheJackB Oooops! I meant Alec... Good thing I have Klout in typos.
marianne.worley TheJackB Haha, I saw but wasn't going to say anything... ;-)
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TheJackB Sorry but there are only two types of people who can get away with 'this will not end well for you'
One, a small, chubby balding guy, usually found sitting in the back room of a bar. You often owe him cash.
Two, your Mom.
Both of them know that things will not end well, with certainty.
Anybody else is just full of hot air and promising stuff he can't really deliver on.
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John FalchettoTheJackB And moms win; you do not want to incur the wrath of mom...............
TheJackB Is the 'the' thing a bad thing? Like 'the Dorman says'..............
I hate that people feel there is only one right answer to any discussion, and then give people a hard time if they look at a different side! And this "adoration" for social media celebrities (no matter who they are!) is kind of disturbing. Seriously people? Let's get something better to do...
KirstenWright I always liked the phrase about there being three versions of something - yours, mine and the truth. Kinda seems apt. ;-)
Funny thing about Internet "fame" for anyone, no matter what level - you're nobody to 99.99% of the population (not a scientific figure). Like you say, Kirsten, perspective. :)
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Hi Danny!
It's been awhile, but I'm happy to be here today. I must say, I've encountered quite the same reactions from people who don't understand the notion of healthy debate and discussion. I've never quite understood why these types of conversations have to result in personal attacks. Personally, I think most people just take themselves way to seriously. In the scope of things the majority of the world doesn't know who is "adored" online or who isn't. If you ain't Lady Gaga, you ain't mainstream. Yes some people care, but not THAT many. It's nothing worth personally offending, insulting, or attacking another human being over. All that said, I appreciate the people who are bold enough to disagree, assert dissenting opinions, and take a stance they rather not move. Despite what some may fall victim to believe, life is not a popularity contest.
MARLdblE Hey there Marlee, great to see you over here - seems a long time since NYC. :)
Sometimes, I can understand. Well, maybe not understand, more see a bit of where they're coming from. If you feel you're under attack or threat, the natural thing you want to do is protect yourself, which can mean striking out.
I guess the problem is, online things are exacerbated and what you might feel is a warranted response is quite a bit more. Which is a shame, since I always find the most interesting debates are the ones where there's an equal amount of respect for the argument as there is for the argument itself.
Cheers, miss!
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Amazing, educational, funny and sad.
This whole "debate" completely boggles my mind.
If you are or want to be an entrepreneur, you will never succeed if you blindly worship or follow anyone or thing. Pledging blind allegiance is the antithesis of capitalism. The American way gives us right to sell anything to anyone who is willing to pay our price. But it also gives us the right to say "that's a great deal" or "that's bogus" without being accused of slander or libel.
Though there was a time in America when public apologies were demanded when someone (often a woman) offended the village leaders. And if they didn't cop to the "offense" they were burned at the stake. So ginidietrich I guess you should be grateful this isn't 17th-century America.
Leadership is about forging your own way, having your own opinions and not being afraid to voice them. That is why Gini is the real thing. .
Rieva ginidietrich I love you Rieva!
PattiRoseKnight ginidietrich Thanks Patti. I need that, since I guess I'm just another "hater" now.
Rieva PattiRoseKnight ginidietrich Did Gini offend the Village Leaders? Because if she did she is in trouble 8)
HowieSPMRievaPattiRoseKnightginidietrich Nah, she's cool with them; I think it was the Village People...............aren't they from Chicago?
Rieva ginidietrich The use of the word "blind" fits perfectly, Rieva - no-one really benefits from that kind of following, and it just stops us from seeing things we should really be looking for.
Easy with the praise for ginidietrich though... ;-)
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DannyBrown ginidietrich Ah but Gini's wined and dined me. Ball's in your court. :)
Forgot to add, I love watching this stuff and find it so amusingly immature and inane. Why do people get so serious about everything? Lighten up, Francis. Oh, grow up, too.
I can't believe that anyone would definitively state that someone is above reproach. No one is above reproach. That is all.
MelWebster I'm sure the Big Chiefs at Enron wished they had been... ;-)
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[...] in the end, it is better to acknowledge the differing voice, and respect the right to a minority opinion. Let someone else have the last word, and listen. Maybe, just maybe, they possess an element of [...]
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[...] Polarization, Fanboys and the Non-Middle Ground originally appeared on Danny Brown | Social Media Marketing Blog – The Human Side of Media and the Social Side of Marketing under a Creative Commons license. [...]
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[...] caveat. I’m a huge believer in free speech and differing opinions, and often get shit on because of it – c’est la vie. I will admit I don’t agree on all speech being free [...]
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[...] caveat. I’m a huge believer in free speech and differing opinions, and often get shit on because of it – c’est la vie. I will admit I don’t agree on all speech being free – clear [...]
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[...] it’s getting harder and harder to tell when I’m watching politics from when I’m reading the conversations on some of my favorite blogs these days. As things change, money comes into the picture and a new wave of bloggers emerges, the [...]
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[...] you’ll always have the fanboys that seem to wear shit goggles, as it feels like anything others say is just shit, unless it’s from the object of their [...]
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[...] No-one is untouchable – no-one. [...]
