A Letter to Joe Fernandez of Klout




Prisoner of Klout

A couple of months back, I wrote about online influence tool Klout, and their approach to how they build their membership (they use opt-out profiling, versus the more widely-used opt-in).

The main concern I had was the fact it was so difficult to leave Klout if you didn’t want to be seen as endorsing their product. As of today, two months later, my profile is still live, despite requests to be removed.

While the likes of Twitter, Facebook and Empire Avenue allow you to delete your account with one click, Klout has a bunch of hoops to go through – and even then, it would appear it doesn’t make much difference.

To his credit, Joe Fernandez – the CEO of Klout – reached out to me via email and addressed the fact that they were still working on how to best approach the opt-out / opt-in process, and that he would love to hear some ideas.

I sent an email back to Joe, but haven’t heard back yet – understandable, I can appreciate he’s busy. So here’s the reply below:

Hi Joe,

I think the single biggest issue is that it’s so difficult to leave.

I understand completely how you gather the information, but the advice from your marketing manager Megan on how to stop yourself from being measured isn’t very business-friendly. Megan’s advice is to make your feeds private – but for someone who does a lot of their business online, making your feeds private is like committing commercial suicide.

Let’s say every single person online did that – Klout itself would have no reason to exist, since your information-gathering tools would have nothing to gather. So you can see the folly of that approach.

There are millions of people wanting to use Klout as a barometer of their “existence”. Fair enough – that’s your audience and the people you sell to investors and companies buying into the Klout ideal.

But there are also many people who don’t wish to be a part of a non-regulated system, and one that can (rightly or wrongly) be used as a third-party validator for expertise. For those people, it should be a simple option of “Delete My Account”, which the likes of Empire Avenue, Facebook, Google, Twitter and more offer.

Making it easy to leave should be as simple as it is for Klout to set up an account for you in the first place, whether you approve it or not.

Thanks for listening,

Danny.

As an addition to this, my friend Lucretia Pruitt had a great idea. Simply have a page that says “This user does not wish to be profiled by Klout, and we respect his/her wishes.” And for that user, don’t allow the option of being pinged by people on Twitter to check their Klout score, nor be invited to Klout itself.

I know there are many people for whom Klout is incredibly useful. I know there are also many people for whom Klout is just a bit of fun, or something they want no part in (especially when it comes to affecting your career path, based on a limited algorithm).

For these people, let them have the option of not being profiled on Klout. Then everyone is happy, and no-one can accuse the platform of just trying to boost numbers by having profiles on there that don’t want to be.

How about you – what would you suggest Klout does better when it comes to people who have no interest in being on their platform?

Update: As of November 1st 2011, there is an Account Deletion option in the Klout dashboard. Finally.

image: remuz

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ab2bc 16 pts

Hi Danny, after reading this post, I opt'd out of Klout. I wanted to before and didn't see the option available. One perfect example of the misguidance is how a pretty face attracts traffic. The prettier the woman, the greater the following, thus the higher ranks they achieve. This is so widely know that men have incorporated using female images in their profiles attracting more attention to their endeavors. I am caught in the numbers game myself, but work hard at building up those numbers.

DannyBrown 2790 pts moderator

ab2bc There's definitely more to Klout than meets the eye (no pun intended). This post went up today, and has an interesting line of code to look at:

http://www.punkviewsonsocialmedia.com/does-klout-use-your-kids-facebook-profile-inflate-their-numbers/

Fun times ahead.

My latest conversation: Is Klout Doing More Than Using Facebook to Inflate Their Numbers?

sanford 9 pts

Interestingly, we at PeerIndex offer a setting in your profile to opt-out of tracking - in keeping with the wishes of our members. Check your Settings page for me.

DannyBrown 2790 pts moderator

sanford Hi Sanford,

Does opting out of tracking also mean opting out of having a public profile dispplayed, and tie into something like LucretiaPruitt 's suggestion?

Cheers for the heads-up, appreciated.

My latest conversation: The Scariest Blogs Ever

sanford 9 pts

DannyBrownLucretiaPruitt No problem Danny - happy to be part of the conv.

Simply put, we are making it such that the first call is to remove you completely - nothing in our database. We do have in the roadmap the ability to provide a no-robots like feature which means your info can be included, but not seen by the web crawlers. Additionally, we are focusing on providing more control over your own data in the coming weeks. Be ready for a change in the conversation.

DannyBrown 2790 pts moderator

sanfordLucretiaPruitt Great to hear, Sanford, and will check out these features more. Cheers again, sir.

My latest conversation: Is Klout Using Our Family to Violate Our Privacy?

jureklepic 85 pts

Danny in fact they can remove your profile if they really want, check this out http://klout.com/loudmouthman he got removed of course after few email exchanges! :) Just how accurate Joe with his info!

My latest conversation: Influence Met Transparency with @Kred

DannyBrown 2790 pts moderator

jureklepic I know Brian Driggs finally got his profile removed (and, I believe, that of his wife's) after suggesting he'd raise the issue with over a million readers on his forum. Maybe Klout only understands large numbers themselves... ;-)

My latest conversation: The Scariest Blogs Ever

Brian Driggs 196 pts

Actually, Danny. My wife's profile is still up there, despite my being told to follow Klout with her account, send them a DM to confirm account ownership, and request removal. Just more subterfuge, I guess.

Then again, never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by ignorance, right? Just a shame to see an organization which so clearly cares very little for people stand to make such significant profits on the names and likeness of those people.

And it just makes me sad to see they are so nonchalant about what is clearly a legal issue. Neither Klout's not Twitter's Terms & Conditions supersede the laws of the state of California wherein they make their headquarters. They're lucky the bulk of the people whose influence they've rated either don't know or don't care.

Oh, and I noticed @JoeFernandez was participating in #toolschat from Dublin last night. "Tools Chat," indeed.

jureklepic 85 pts

DannyBrownBrian Driggs I just want to make small correction that i discovered this morning. Id you have good eye you will see that they dont deleted your account, but they only mask your account behind THIS ACCOUNT IS CURRENTLY DISABLED. I checked this morning and catch Brian's profile for few seconds, with score and topics. I bet 3rd parties companies will still see your data. Is despicable what they are doing and trying to play us around!

My latest conversation: Influence Met Transparency with @Kred

This comment has been deleted
jureklepic 85 pts

M_M_ Hey I dont know in which country you live, but by the law they have 30 days time to reply on you request. You might want to send them next:

Your Name:

Address City,

State Zip

Klout Inc.

Megan Berry

Privacy Officer

77 Stillman Street,

San Francisco,

CA 94107

Tel: 415-520-3951

Fax: 415-777-2001

Re: Cease and Desist

Dear Ms. Berry:

Pursuant to my rights under federal privacy law, I am requesting that you:

a.) cease and desist communication with me, b.) stop tracking my online activities on various social media platforms, c.) stop sharing my personal information with 3rd parties without my consent d.) permanently delete my account that you created on your website (www.klout.com) without my prior consent.

You are hereby notified that if you do not comply with this request, I will immediately file a complaint with the Federal Privacy Commissionar office, and the San Francisco Attorney General’s office. Civil and criminal claims will be pursued.

Sincerely, Your Name

Hope this help.

My latest conversation: Influence Met Transparency with @Kred

jureklepic 85 pts

M_M_ just send them the letter above and they will disable your profile asap.

My latest conversation: Influence Met Transparency with @Kred

jureklepic 85 pts

M_M_ Yes even if you are in USA! If you need anymore help message me on my twitter and i will help you!

My latest conversation: Influence Met Transparency with @Kred

AdamWeitner 13 pts

I have a feeling that the backlash they are receiving today regarding the new updates to their algorithm (read comments at the bottom of the blog here: http://corp.klout.com/blog/2011/10/a-more-accurate-transparent-klout-score/) is only helping to keep them anti-opt-out.

Had the option to opt-out been easy and readily available, they would have likely lost a great number of users today, and you can be damn sure they know that. I am feeling less confident there will ever be an opt-out, save for some kind massive legal case against them that forces them into it... Sigh...

DannyBrown 2790 pts moderator

AdamWeitner You know, that's a good point, mate. It may come down to legal cases, and there certainly seems to be a lot of information for anyone looking to go that route, as per Brian Driggs comment further down.

Looking into international versions. And funnily enough, Bob LeDrew just had a guest post go up here that looks a little more at the overnight changes. ;-)

My latest conversation: A Klout Upside the Head

LucretiaPruitt 104 pts

The problem is that legal cases cost money. And you have to be able to show damages - you can't just say "that guy is posting information that is publicly available and I don't want him to!!" Even with the 'score' - well, Rotten Tomatoes shows scores on movies - and it's considered an opinion. Until someone can show that a 'low Klout score' somehow impacted him/her materially? You aren't going to see any lawsuits here in the US.

DannyBrown 2790 pts moderator

LucretiaPruitt True. Although there's always a first, especially in the litigation-happy US. ;-)

My latest conversation: A Klout Upside the Head

jureklepic 85 pts

DannyBrownLucretiaPruitt Well I will show them that Canada protects their residents CPI and PIPEDA loves company who breaches privacy concerns :)

My latest conversation: Influence Met Transparency with @Kred

karirippetoe 22 pts

Wow, DannyBrown - you're really on a tear about Klout lately, aren't you? ;-)

I used to be totally into the idea of Klout. On paper, it is kind of a good idea. But the whole thing is becoming more and more convoluted, and I'm just getting more and more disillusioned with it. Our scores depend on an algorithm, and algorithms are by no means perfect. There are lots subtle nuances of influence that just can't be quantified.

Most of our scores have dropped quite a bit today, and I fear that too many decision-makers are going to put all their eggs in the Klout-influence basket and someone won't get hired for something as a result. We're talking about a life-changing event hanging on an imperfect score! Joe Fernandez out to think about that and focus on developing an easy opt-out process - rather than on fixing an algorithm that's always going to be broken.

DannyBrown 2790 pts moderator

karirippetoe Haha, I'm guessing the guest post I just set live will only go to enforce that image, miss. :)

The algorithm is the biggest flaw - you can't define yourself as "the standard for influence" when you're measuring a very limited (and North American-based) set of platforms.

What's disappointing is that the team seem to be blase about solutions, and are more concerned about getting their numbers up.

Time will tell if they make (in my view) the right move and allow only those who want to use their system to be part of it, and everyone else can go merrily on their way.

My latest conversation: A Klout Upside the Head

TNTAnderson 8 pts

Dan, I completely agree with your Klout issues. I dumped Klout this morning. Nothing to do with my score dropping, just another thing that does not matter to me, and I don't want any part of.

I thought it was interesting when I first registered. Now it seems use less - too many ways to trick the Klout system. Games I am not willing to play. As they add more 'stuff' to your score, it is just going to get more and more convoluted.

Now it seems that my Klout score will haunt me for the rest of my internet life. Guess I can always establish a new online indentity?

DannyBrown 2790 pts moderator

TNTAnderson Hey there Tim,

That's the really annoying thing, mate - they put you on their system easily enough, but make it damn hard to leave. Maybe they should rename themselves Kult...?

(I'm only half-joking).

My latest conversation: A Klout Upside the Head

ginidietrich 5400 pts

And today they changed their rankings and everyone's scores dropped. But the thing that kills me is how they're using PeopleRank. There are three criteria and one of them is how influential the people are that are following you and conversing with you. That, to me, is setting the social world up for lots of butt kissing of the perceived A-listers.

My latest conversation: Six Ways to Integrate Marketing and Sales

sydcon_mktg 258 pts

ginidietrich I totally agree! What I have always found intresting is that you can influence so many people with higher Klout scores than your own, and you still plummet - so that makes zero sense.

Also, I view these sudden changes and dumps in Klout scores as a way to get them more attention & tweets. A talking point.

My latest conversation: Post office solution to survival? Slam the internet!

HowieSPM 2357 pts

sydcon_mktgginidietrich my score is the same sadly. Gini was yours higher than 63 before?

ginidietrich 5400 pts

HowieSPMsydcon_mktg Mine was 79 yesterday. I don't mind it going down - everyone's did. What I do mind is how they're ranking people now. It's a slippery slope.

My latest conversation: Six Ways to Integrate Marketing and Sales

sydcon_mktg 258 pts

HowieSPMginidietrich Mine dumped from a 50 to a 40. Funny thing is that they changed my scores going back a month. So, are they admitting that a month ago their algorithm was bad/off? Are we supposed to believe this one is right now?

My latest conversation: Post office solution to survival? Slam the internet!

HowieSPM 2357 pts

ginidietrichsydcon_mktg what? OK now that is Horse Hockey! This is like Facebook now. But we can kind of quit facebook (you can deactivate but you can never leave)

rayhiltz 16 pts

ginidietrich HowieSPM sydcon_mktg Will encourage more "gaming". But they do say that it's about influence, not relationships.

LucretiaPruitt 104 pts

ginidietrichHowieSPMsydcon_mktg except everyone's didn't Gini. According to their blog post? The "majority" stayed the same or went up. Wonder if there's an "associated with Danny Brown" penalty ;)

DannyBrown 2790 pts moderator

LucretiaPruittginidietrichHowieSPMsydcon_mktg I'll take that as a badge of honour. ;-)

My latest conversation: A Klout Upside the Head

BethKSchmitz 25 pts

sydcon_mktgginidietrich I like this conversation. I'm really getting into the whole Klout score thing. I'm a little (leetle) competitive. So, I see opportunities to try this and that to see who it affects my score. Now that I know the new high score, per davevandewalle is Eleventy Billion, I'm all up in arms! But honestly, I am a very private person who understands that somethings will not be private. My business conversations will not be private. That is what is out on the Internet. Klout can have them. Everything else is super-protected.

Brankica 374 pts

BethKSchmitzsydcon_mktgginidietrich has to be "associated with Danny" thing, mine dropped 9 points LOL.

The funny part is that a gal I know has way more influence than me is only one point better in Klout. Even I know that isn't right!

My latest conversation: How to Blow a Chance To Score a Guest Post

DannyBrown 2790 pts moderator

ginidietrich So basically people have to kiss arse of those deemed influential by Klout to be influential themselves? Haha, Krazy! ;-)

My latest conversation: A Klout Upside the Head

ginidietrich 5400 pts

DannyBrown That's definitely how I read their message this morning.

My latest conversation: Boost your Yelp Rating...and Your Sales With These Six Steps

Brankica 374 pts

ginidietrichDannyBrown I have never kissed any A butts, I don't plan to start now. No score is worth getting "involved" with some of "those" LOL

My latest conversation: How to Blow a Chance To Score a Guest Post

LucretiaPruitt 104 pts

ginidietrich I want to make some tongue-in-cheek remark about wanting to reply but needing to go kiss some A-lister Twitter butt... but I can't even make myself joke about this.PeopleRank makes sense when you're talking about something like Quora or GitHub - but when you're talking about Twitter? Yeah. Not so much.

MediaLabRat 12 pts

ginidietrich I couldn't agree with you more Gini. All these social ranking platforms have completely bastardized the notion of true influence. When just having a certain number (that can be totally gamed) will get you to the front of the line, that's when its time to bail. Klout has basically turned Social Media into the digital version of the movie "Heathers" -uggggh. Oh no, did I just date myself with a reference to a 1988 movie? ~Sigh~

That being said, I am not beyond a little butt kissing to get you to take a look at Chirpaloo :) CC anneweiskopf

Marcus_Sheridan 604 pts

Any time we spend trying to increase/manipulate an empty number is time we could actually be creating something that truly has lasting benefits. I'm not a fan of Klout. Frankly, I simply don't like how everything in this world has to be ranked. It's like we're losing our way.

This being said, I'll be speaking at an event (in your neck of the woods DB) in a couple of weeks where Fernandez is keynoting, so I'm looking forward to speaking with him there and addressing my concerns about the direction of this whole thing.

Thanks for this DB,

Marcus

HowieSPM 2357 pts

Marcus_Sheridan Klout isn't the only company doing this. Edleman is as well with their Trust Barometer. While I often come down on Edleman in general I have a pretty high score.And this is a big issue to me obviously based on my comments and Danny's post and everyone else who has given input here.

I say this a lot because Tom Moradpour of Pepsi said it best.

'Klout only measures your Klout.'

There is no 'influence' in that statement. Kind of like my own epic saying: Social Media is a revolution in interpersonal communication technologies' where the word marketing is not included.

In my opinion we are forcing the term influence into Klout vs actually viewing Klout as not a measure of influence but only a measure of Klout. The same as we force marketing into Social Media (advertising ruins everything new anyway LOL)

DannyBrown 2790 pts moderator

Marcus_Sheridan I wonder if he'd be up for evening dinner and a chat over drinks, mate? ;-)

It's the manipulation and the emphasis on the scoring (and it's reflection on people and how it makes them feel), that's just crazy. Bob LeDrew has just made some great points about it all in his guest post on this very blog - the link is below. :)

My latest conversation: A Klout Upside the Head

markaylward 25 pts

Hey Danny

I'm not familiar with Klout, but have had the experience of having difficulty opting out of things online and it's very annoying. Is Klout worth investigating, in your opinion? I am adamantly opposed to sites and applications exercising "control" over my preferences and wishes online.

Peace

Mark

DannyBrown 2790 pts moderator

markaylward Hi Mark,

I'm probably the wrong person to ask about Klout, as I'm not impressed with them one bit at the minute. ;-)

However... if I were to look at it from outside my personal views, I'd still say it's limited but with possibilities. Though they need to do a lot of work to make it better.

But, like I say, I have a skewed opinion of them. ;-)

My latest conversation: A Klout Upside the Head

markaylward 25 pts

DannyBrown Thanks Danny

I'll put Klout in the closet for now. There's enough shiny stuff to focus on:)

Mark

LucretiaPruitt 104 pts

Unsurprisingly, I endorse this 100%.

While I, personally, currentlyhave no intention of opting out of Klout, I am a strong privacy advocate and believe that opt-in is the best model, followed closely by opt-out. Are you listening Klout?

DannyBrown 2790 pts moderator

LucretiaPruitt It doesn't need to be so difficult - one simple button. *Sigh*.

My latest conversation: A Klout Upside the Head

LucretiaPruitt 104 pts

DannyBrown The funny part is that when I posted that this morning? I had no intention of opting out. But the latest "algorithm adjustment" actually is the last straw for me. I've 'unlinked' everything but my Twitter account (which it won't let me disconnect.) http://yfrog.com/kjajo9j is the part that cracks me up so much though... Apparently last week? Either I or my "network" pissed off a *lot* of people. I kinda want that button now.

Conversation from Twitter

bluebus
bluebus

andypiper Thanks for the heads up on klout. A friend has had concerns that I ignored and it does now look like I was being lax.

andypiper
andypiper

Well bluebus I've been ignoring concerns about klout as well but their privacy lapses are unacceptable. Sooner I'm off it the better.

Val_Ce
Val_Ce

Giaskincare dannybrown #BoaNoite

Trackbacks

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